Steep streets

[Frank Krygowski]

Here's a half hour video on Pittsburgh's Dirty Dozen race. Astonishing!

https://youtu.be/pRsZbwQOAMo

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Here's a half hour video on Pittsburgh's Dirty Dozen race. Astonishing!
>
> https://youtu.be/pRsZbwQOAMo
>

Does seem to be a thing with colonial places, ie very steep street, the
claim is due to the towns being planned from afar ie without realising how
steep the ground was.

As while do get some steep roads for example in Europe I’d assume Asia as
well and so on, streets are relatively rare, are exceptions such as the
south Wales valleys where the flat valley bottom was used for industrial so
housing was on the steep sides but even then tend to try to mitigate the
slope.

I’d certainly want a bike with lower than 1-1 gearing and more grip/cush
over cobbles ie my Gravel bike.

Not sure about tarmac having an upper limit ie grade? Certainly gets laid
on roads 25/35% grades though uk is generally cool and such hills tend to
colder areas anyway.

https://blog.veloviewer.com/bamford-clough-the-steepest-road-in-the-uk-world/

Which also has some of the science ie GPS or map max grades aren’t terribly
reliable!

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

I don't know about that but Pittsburgh is at the confluence
of three rivers and is just generally annoyingly intractably
vertical:

https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-fc57/Pittsburgh/

A few cabins along a river is one thing but, with the
terrain, municipal growth = lower gearing.
--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Frank Krygowski]

It's extremely three dimensional! And its streets are laid out as
logically as a plate of spaghetti.

I figure the reason it was settled at all was that they didn't have GPS
in those days. People got lost and couldn't find their way home, so they
just stayed.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[funkma...@hotmail.com]

We have a couple of local hills that approach 30%, but years ago there used to be a time trial in Miller State Park, Wilton, New Hampshire. At 1.2 miles and only averaging 12%, there are several sections over 25%, and the last pitch to the top is 39%.

https://www.strava.com/segments/630964

The first time I rode it, I could see the 39% section through the trees. I didn't think it was the road, I though it was the roof of a building.

[Roger Merriman]

Pittsburgh can’t be that old, looks like just at the start of the
Industrial Revolution, ie grading how steep a road is plus the in places
move heavy loads as became more common.

Though some maybe started as industrial inclines ie not roads but counter
weighted carts, some near my folks used water to pull stuff up the steep
inclines.

Some of the industrial towns/villages such as south Wales valleys ie
nothing previously, the upper parts which are depopulated now as the reason
to exist has gone ie iron/coal but such places the pubs for example drop
down at least a floor if not two as the land drops, but has some wee steep
streets.

But often they aren’t intended to take motorists bar residents or are dead
ends and so on.

The main roads will generally take a more moderate route up, particularly
noting early trucks hill climbing abilities or rather lack of.

Hence mountain passes with lovely switch backs to moderate the grade often
built 100 or so years ago to ease the road for motorists, pre that shorter
but steeper was favoured.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I think you're correct in that it required motor trucks to move building materials up roads like that. Those cobblestones do not mean that the street was old but that it was the cheapest method of paving the streets to keep from a dirt road being washed down the hill.

[Roger Merriman]

Cobbles if shaped would give horse traction, which is one advantage, unless
very new streets they would predate lorries by some margin, even the Welsh
valleys predate lorries, as there existence was due to early coal/iron so
1830 or so onwards.

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

Those didn't appear tp be cobbles that animals could use - they were FAR too smooth and the distance between the cobbles too short.

[AMuzi]

Yes you are correct. Started as a British fortification at
the interface to French America, mid-1700s.

[AMuzi]

I have a customer in the concrete (walks patios and
driveways) business who says steep-sloped concrete is
extremely difficult to lay($$) but much easier and more
durable than asphalt. Cobbles are actually a good choice of
material.

[Ted Heise]

On Mon, 04 Dec 2023 16:16:27 GMT,
Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 7:41:39 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 12/3/2023 5:45 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 12/3/2023 4:31 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> Here's a half hour video on Pittsburgh's Dirty Dozen race. Astonishing!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://youtu.be/pRsZbwQOAMo

> >>>>> As while do get some steep roads for example in Europe I’d
> >>>>> assume Asia as well and so on, streets are relatively
> >>>>> rare, are exceptions such as the south Wales valleys where
> >>>>> the flat valley bottom was used for industrial so housing
> >>>>> was on the steep sides but even then tend to try to
> >>>>> mitigate the slope.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I’d certainly want a bike with lower than 1-1 gearing and
> >>>>> more grip/cush over cobbles ie my Gravel bike.

> >>>> I don't know about that but Pittsburgh is at the confluence
> >>>> of three rivers and is just generally annoyingly
> >>>> intractably vertical:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-fc57/Pittsburgh/
> >>>
> >>> It's extremely three dimensional! And its streets are laid
> >>> out as logically as a plate of spaghetti.

> >> Pittsburgh can’t be that old, looks like just at the start of
> >> the Industrial Revolution, ie grading how steep a road is
> >> plus the in places move heavy loads as became more common.

> >> Some of the industrial towns/villages such as south Wales
> >> valleys ie nothing previously, the upper parts which are
> >> depopulated now as the reason to exist has gone ie iron/coal
> >> but such places the pubs for example drop down at least a
> >> floor if not two as the land drops, but has some wee steep
> >> streets.
> >>
> >> But often they aren’t intended to take motorists bar
> >> residents or are dead ends and so on.
> >>
> >> The main roads will generally take a more moderate route up,
> >> particularly noting early trucks hill climbing abilities or
> >> rather lack of.
> >>
> >> Hence mountain passes with lovely switch backs to moderate
> >> the grade often built 100 or so years ago to ease the road
> >> for motorists, pre that shorter but steeper was favoured.

> > I think you're correct in that it required motor trucks to
> > move building materials up roads like that. Those cobblestones
> > do not mean that the street was old but that it was the
> > cheapest method of paving the streets to keep from a dirt road
> > being washed down the hill.
>
> Cobbles if shaped would give horse traction, which is one
> advantage, unless very new streets they would predate lorries
> by some margin, even the Welsh valleys predate lorries, as
> there existence was due to early coal/iron so 1830 or so
> onwards.

I seem to recall something to that effect (cobblestones giving
traction for horses) at Snake Alley...

https://www.burlingtoniowa.org/2311/History-Heritage-Snake-Alley
https://www.greaterburlington.com/convention-and-visitors-bureau/explore/snake-alley/

I don't find it online, so I may have seen it on the historical
marker at the site.

--
Ted Heise <the...@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/4/2023 10:41 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 12/3/2023 5:45 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know about that but Pittsburgh is at the confluence of three
>>> rivers and is just generally annoyingly intractably vertical:
>>>
>>> https://en-us.topographic-map.com/map-fc57/Pittsburgh/
>>
>> It's extremely three dimensional! And its streets are laid out as
>> logically as a plate of spaghetti.
>>
>> I figure the reason it was settled at all was that they didn't have GPS
>> in those days. People got lost and couldn't find their way home, so they
>> just stayed.
>>
>
> Pittsburgh can’t be that old, looks like just at the start of the

> Industrial Revolution...

"That old" is relative. I once worked with an English engineer. He told me that in England, all of American history
is covered under "Current Events."

> The main roads will generally take a more moderate route up, particularly
> noting early trucks hill climbing abilities or rather lack of.

One notorious local hill is on Sky Hill Road. Decades ago, the first time I explored it, I was riding along at near river
level near the base of its hill. I saw buildings at the top of the ridge, and said to myself "This road can't go straight
up that hill. It's an old road. Horses could never pull a wagon up such a steep hill, so there must be switchbacks."

I was wrong. I finished the climb standing in my granny gear, totally fatigued. I could never climb it these days.

> Hence mountain passes with lovely switch backs to moderate the grade often
> built 100 or so years ago to ease the road for motorists, pre that shorter
> but steeper was favoured.

Among American cyclists, it's well known that the Appalachians are much more difficult than the typical passes
through the Rockies. Appalachian roads are much older and steeper, although the climbs are shorter. For a typical
pass in the Rockies, one can just gear down and crank slowly. It may take hours, but it's not nearly so strenuous.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

But the size of the city has grown immensely. The buildings along those hills appeared to be all mid-20th century construction. That would mean that they most certainly were not there during the 17th century. And you cannot supply forts and fortifications via oxen and mule trains on steep grades because the absolute limit is 7%. Our local Mt. Hamilton where I on a climb spotted a Grey Wolf and that moron Liebermann who was not there claimed there were no wolves in California though later picture of them in people's back yards in the bay area showed that morons stupidity.

I have never figured out why someone that has never been anywhere or done anything considers himself an expert on everything on the weight of a 4 year degree that it took him 6 years to earn. And that he was never able to use for anything except to wave about and say "See, I am really smart".

[Tom Kunich]

Note the substantial difference between the cobblestones on Cobblestone Alley and the bricks on Snake Alley.

[Roger Merriman]

The cobbles will have to been replaced multiple times that’s one of cobbles
issues maintenance.

But realistically who knows why it was laid with cobbles, though probably
predates most modern forms of surfaces unless it’s only a 100 or so years
old, which seems unlikely.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 11:42:57 AM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> But the size of the city has grown immensely. The buildings along those hills appeared to be all mid-20th century construction. That would mean that they most certainly were not there during the 17th century. And you cannot supply forts and fortifications via oxen and mule trains on steep grades because the absolute limit is 7%. Our local Mt. Hamilton where I on a climb spotted a Grey Wolf and that moron Liebermann who was not there claimed ...

The usual Kunich ranting: Turning a discussion of steep hills into yet another insulting resurrection of an old dispute.

Damn, Tom, you're a sorry old man. Your misery permeates all your writing.

- Frank Krygowski

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 08:37:12 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Among American cyclists, it's well known that the Appalachians are much more difficult than the typical passes
>through the Rockies. Appalachian roads are much older and steeper, although the climbs are shorter. For a typical
>pass in the Rockies, one can just gear down and crank slowly. It may take hours, but it's not nearly so strenuous.

Utter nonsense. Anybody who has actually ridden in *real* Rocky
Mountain passes (7000-12000 feet) understands that the altitude is a
huge limiting factor.

[Rolf Mantel]

That's one of the reasons some old alpine pass roads have their hair-pin
bends cobbled and the straights in asphalt.

[AMuzi]

> But the size of the city has grown immensely. The buildings along those hills appeared to be all mid-20th century construction. That would mean that they most certainly were not there during the 17th century. And you cannot supply forts and fortifications via oxen and mule trains on steep grades because the absolute limit is 7%. Our local Mt. Hamilton where I on a climb spotted a Grey Wolf and that moron Liebermann who was not there claimed there were no wolves in California though later picture of them in people's back yards in the bay area showed that morons stupidity.
>
> I have never figured out why someone that has never been anywhere or done anything considers himself an expert on everything on the weight of a 4 year degree that it took him 6 years to earn. And that he was never able to use for anything except to wave about and say "See, I am really smart".

Started as a riverfront fortification:
https://i0.wp.com/revolutionarywarjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Artist-rendition-of-Fort-Pitt.jpg?w=611&ssl=1

see also similar concurrent designs:
https://revolutionarywarjournal.com/redoubts-americas-forts-during-the-revolutionary-war/

But human culture and commerce does well at river junctions
and rivers generally and so growth went up the hills.

[Tom Kunich]

Under normal use, asphalt should be replaced every five years.

[Tom Kunich]

Frank's ego simply doesn't allow him to believe that anyone other than him could EVER be right about anything. He is a poor sick old man that the vaccine is probably eating up. One of the registered side effects is growing mental problems that get worse over time. They started showing up starting 6 months after vaccination. I thought that perhaps it was simply people becoming frightened because of all of the discoveries of side effects that were poorly reported. But people like Liebermann and Krygowski are plainly far over mere unease.

[Tom Kunich]

Think of how nice it was for the British Army to stand their ground at attention and fire on orders when the American intelligently took cover.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/4/2023 12:49 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:24:20 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes you are correct. Started as a British fortification at
>>> the interface to French America, mid-1700s.
>>

> Started as a riverfront fortification:
> https://i0.wp.com/revolutionarywarjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Artist-rendition-of-Fort-Pitt.jpg?w=611&ssl=1

A few weeks ago I visited (by bicycle, no less) the excellent museum of
the fort at The Point in Pittsburgh. Those interested should not miss it
if they're in the area.

There are several other similar museums in the general area, all worth a
visit. https://www.fortligonier.org/plan/french-indian-war-sites/

--
- Frank Krygowski

[AMuzi]

> Think of how nice it was for the British Army to stand their ground at attention and fire on orders when the American intelligently took cover.

Military theory but its nature constantly evolves, for
Britain in the late 1700s and for us this morning.

Britain's 3-line formation for musket infantry was
innovative and effective. Until it wasn't. Just like horse
cavalry, Sherman tanks, V2, and a hundred thousand other
innovations.

[John B.]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 14:36:59 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 12/4/2023 1:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

>> On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 9:49:50?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 12/4/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:

The British system of sustained musket fire was largely a defensive
form of warfare. As someone said of Lieutenant-General Sir Arthur
Wellesley, during the Peninsular War, "Give him, a hill to defend and
he'll be there forever. A technique he used successfully in the Battle
of Waterloo.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

Which is decades after Lexington, emphasizing that military
techniques are a dynamic choice for any given situation.

A Noted Person mockingly derided bayonets in a major speech
on military procurement and everyone shared in laughter. Not
long after, a Marine lieutenant and his squad were watching
a growing hostile crowd gathering in Baghdad. He sharply
commanded "Fix bayonets" followed by the metallic clunks
against rifles. The crowd dissipated.

[Roger Merriman]

On quiet streets I’d assume much like country roads the duration is much
longer, some of the lanes near my folks place I can’t ever remember them
being replaced, occasionally patch potholes maybe but relay the surfaces?

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

I believe at least one of the battles in the falklands was ended in a
similar fashion, ie the Argentine could hear “fix Bayonet” though it was a
obvious lost cause at this point which I’m sure helped matters.

It’s certainly true that strategies can do change and just because
something was successful doesn’t mean it will always, I believe
particularly the 1st world war, that the Royal Navy captains where still
hero worship Nelson and attempted to copy even though the technology had
drastically changed.

Roger Merriman

[Catrike Rider]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 11:38:28 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Kryskowski claims to have ridden cross country, but I doubt he rode
over any real rocky mountain passes.

[Roger Merriman]

A reduction in oxygen and power one can produce though this can vary
clearly is important hence altitude training camps in various places.

This said this seems to be endurance ie low intensity than the steeper
stuff ie once you get ramps in the 20/30% mark it’s extremely hard to
measure one’s effort ie your generally going into oxygen deficit compared
to the longer and higher climbs where it’s much more about endurance and
fuelling.

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

One of the passes in Wales Bwlch (means pass) you can see the line of the
old road/track vs the S bend curve the road takes now.

>> Hence mountain passes with lovely switch backs to moderate the grade often
>> built 100 or so years ago to ease the road for motorists, pre that shorter
>> but steeper was favoured.
>
> Among American cyclists, it's well known that the Appalachians are much
> more difficult than the typical passes
> through the Rockies. Appalachian roads are much older and steeper,
> although the climbs are shorter. For a typical
> pass in the Rockies, one can just gear down and crank slowly. It may take
> hours, but it's not nearly so strenuous.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

That is broadly my experience with places such as Tenerife which is long
climb 20 something miles, and around the 7k mark at the top, though the
summit is beyond that, in that if one takes it easy and drinks/eats
regularly it’s doable and manageable, compared to shorter steeper stuff
that is a much more intense, even with nice low gearing.

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/4/2023 8:16 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:

> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Among American cyclists, it's well known that the Appalachians are much
>> more difficult than the typical passes
>> through the Rockies. Appalachian roads are much older and steeper,
>> although the climbs are shorter. For a typical
>> pass in the Rockies, one can just gear down and crank slowly. It may take
>> hours, but it's not nearly so strenuous.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
> That is broadly my experience with places such as Tenerife which is long
> climb 20 something miles, and around the 7k mark at the top, though the
> summit is beyond that, in that if one takes it easy and drinks/eats
> regularly it’s doable and manageable, compared to shorter steeper stuff
> that is a much more intense, even with nice low gearing.

Of course the "summit is beyond that." That's why it's a pass! ;-)

When we were making our way through the Rockies, it was blisteringly
hot. For my wife, especially, that meant having to stop a few times in
whatever meager shade we could find on the longest climbs, to drink
water, maybe eat a snack and just cool down. I'd equipped our bikes with
nice low gears, so those gradients were well within our capabilities.

The Appalachians are different. Years earlier one of my kids and I rode
across Pennsylvania from New Jersey back to Ohio. He was literally
furious about the steepness of some of the climbs.

And as I've mentioned here before, we hosted Warm Showers guests for
many years. One couple had ridden from San Francisco to Maine, then
turned around and stayed with us on their way to Texas. They arrived
here dead beat, and said Western Pennsylvania had been their hardest day
of the entire trip.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

You don't think that the fact that the "Americans" out numbered the
British forces by about 2.6 to 1 had any effect on the battle?

>A Noted Person mockingly derided bayonets in a major speech
>on military procurement and everyone shared in laughter. Not
>long after, a Marine lieutenant and his squad were watching
>a growing hostile crowd gathering in Baghdad. He sharply
>commanded "Fix bayonets" followed by the metallic clunks
>against rifles. The crowd dissipated.
--

Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 00:44:52 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

wrote:

>Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:57:55?AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> On Monday, December 4, 2023 at 8:16:30?AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

https://www.asphaltpavementsolutions.com/long-expect-asphalt-pavement-last/
"Properly maintained asphalt pavement should last between 20 and 30
years, or 25 years on average."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[AMuzi]

+1
That's how my grandfather ended up in eastern Ohio.
Pennsylvania Railroad trains, especially coal trains, took a
beating on those descents making plenty of work and overtime
for railway machinists in Ohio.

[AMuzi]

A complex question with no simple answer. Absolute numbers
matter all else being equal but plenty of tactical factors
show us examples and counterexamples both ways.

[Tom Kunich]

One of those "passes" goes through Denver, the mile high city which is inside of a bowl. Not only is the route in and out very steep but there is little oxygen in the air. Franks reveals that he commonly lies about things since anyone who has been there would know. The passes though the Sierra Nevada's are every bit as trying as the Pittsburg hills but when you're used to riding on flat ground those Pittsburg hills are obviously terrifying.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 11:31:26 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Under normal use, asphalt should be replaced every five years.

Wrong. John B. found the correct number. About every 25 years.

Locally, the county and state maintained major roads were first paved
during the depression era (1930's) or about 90 years ago. This
coincides with when the first concrete bridges were built by the WPA.
The typical thickness of an asphalt overlay is 1.5 inches.
<https://theasphaltpro.com/articles/perform-pro-asphalt-overlays-thin-lifts/>
"A conventional overlay is at least 1.5 inches thick..."
If the local roads had been re-paved every 5 years for 90 years, the
asphalt would now be:
90 / 5 * 1.5 = 27 inches thick.
A cross section would probably look like a mushroom and overflowing
into the adjacent embankments and drainage ditches. I don't know of
any local road that has a 27 inches (68.6 cm) thick asphalt layer.

Tom: If you don't know the correct number, don't guess. Look it up
using your favored search tool. If you're too busy to do that, do a
sanity check on your number, like I did above, to determine if your
guess is even close to a realistic number.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Lou Holtman]

On Tuesday, December 5, 2023 at 6:01:15 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 11:31:26 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Under normal use, asphalt should be replaced every five years.
> Wrong. John B. found the correct number. About every 25 years.
>
> Locally, the county and state maintained major roads were first paved
> during the depression era (1930's) or about 90 years ago. This
> coincides with when the first concrete bridges were built by the WPA.
> The typical thickness of an asphalt overlay is 1.5 inches.
> <https://theasphaltpro.com/articles/perform-pro-asphalt-overlays-thin-lifts/>
> "A conventional overlay is at least 1.5 inches thick..."
> If the local roads had been re-paved every 5 years for 90 years, the
> asphalt would now be:
> 90 / 5 * 1.5 = 27 inches thick.
> A cross section would probably look like a mushroom and overflowing
> into the adjacent embankments and drainage ditches. I don't know of
> any local road that has a 27 inches (68.6 cm) thick asphalt layer.

Huh?? Here we machine the old asphalt of first. In my neighbourhood they repaved a lot of roads recently. My way to work is almost all new asphalt now.

Lou

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 08:42:55 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Our local Mt. Hamilton where I on a climb spotted a Grey Wolf and that moron Liebermann who was not there claimed there were no wolves in California though later picture of them in people's back yards in the bay area showed that morons stupidity.

Let me know when you find your backyard wolf photos.

Did you report your wolf sighting?
<https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Gray-Wolf/Sighting-Report>
As I understand it, most such sightings turn out to be various breeds
of large dogs.

"Gray Wolf"
<https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Gray-Wolf>
"This native species was likely extirpated from California in the
1920s. Wolves have returned to California on their own by dispersal of
individuals from source populations in other states."

Known wolves in California:
<https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Gray-Wolf#55967770-californias-known-wolves>
Skimming the details, all of the credible wolf sightings were in the
northern California counties. I couldn't find anything listed in the
Mt Hamilton (Santa Clara County) area.

Since our last contentious discussion on the topic of wolf sightings,
there have been some additional gray wolf sightings in Tulare County,
in the Sequoia National Park and Forest, which is further south:
<https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Gray-Wolf/Updates>

As a reminder, it's fairly easy to tell the difference between a wolf
and dog. If you are running for your life, it's a wolf. If not, it's
a dog.

Some personal history involving werewolves:
<https://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/werewolf.txt>

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 09:22:47 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
<lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's called "cold planing". It also offers the benefit of recycling
some of the old asphalt:
<https://calrecycle.ca.gov/condemo/roads/>
The problem is that the county road specifications limit the amount of
recycled asphalt that can be used for repaving the roads to about 15%.
That means the remainder of any old asphalt ends up in the landfill.
Because of the added cost of disposal, cold planing doesn't seem very
popular.

If the roads were repaved at the generally acceptable 25 year interval
with a 1.5" overlay, then in the past 90 years, the roads would be:
90 / 25 * 1.5 = 5.4 in thick.
That's a reasonable thickness that would NOT require cold planing. I'm
fairly sure that there's a specification as to how thick a road can
become before cold planing is required. As I vaguely recall, the
asphalt thickness reduces the weight limit of the road. I'll try to
find some best practices, specs and numbers.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 12/5/2023 1:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 09:22:47 -0800 (PST), Lou Holtman
> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Huh?? Here we machine the old asphalt of first. In my neighbourhood they repaved a lot of roads recently. My way to work is almost all new asphalt now.
>> Lou
>
> That's called "cold planing". It also offers the benefit of recycling
> some of the old asphalt:
> <https://calrecycle.ca.gov/condemo/roads/>

In our area, they call it "scarfing."

> The problem is that the county road specifications limit the amount of
> recycled asphalt that can be used for repaving the roads to about 15%.
> That means the remainder of any old asphalt ends up in the landfill.
> Because of the added cost of disposal, cold planing doesn't seem very
> popular.

Our village has used the grindings as a gravel replacement in certain
parking lots and wide hiking trails.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

That must be affected by the condition of the subbase and base layers,
etc. One short residential street near me was paved perhaps ten years
ago, and it's already showing "alligator" cracks. It's on the downhill
side of a very shallow hill, and I've noted water flowing up through the
pavement cracks during rainstorms.

The road's pavement was terrible for many, many years - bad enough that
I routed around it on bike rides. I suspect they put the thinnest
possible skim coat on it to silence resident complaints.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Kunich]

Liebermann has no idea of how roads are made and maintained. That is why he knows so much about them.

[John B.]

I suspect that the "fix bayonets" episode mentioned above is highly
exaggerated if for no other reason then (1) hostile crowds are never
silent and (2) installing a bayonet is not a noisy act at all, no
clunk but rather a slight click.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mAHqdj7hZk
Thus the crowd would never have "heard" the Marines installing their
bayonets.

But, admittedly, it does make a lovely story for the uninitiated.




--
Cheers,

John B.

[Joy Beeson]

On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 06:05:26 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> But, admittedly, it does make a lovely story for the uninitiated.

A regular on one of my other groups has the motto: "Don't believe any
story that could survive on its literary merits."


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Sir Ridesalot]

Same here. The take off the top layer of the asphalt layers, rough up the surface of the remaing layer and only then add the new top layer. No extra thickening of the road surface.

Cheers

[Tom Kunich]

On one of mine, someone said "Nothing rhymes with orange" so I said, "no it doesn't"

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 17:04:56 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

(chomp)

>A Noted Person mockingly derided bayonets in a major speech
>on military procurement and everyone shared in laughter. Not
>long after, a Marine lieutenant and his squad were watching
>a growing hostile crowd gathering in Baghdad. He sharply
>commanded "Fix bayonets" followed by the metallic clunks
>against rifles. The crowd dissipated.

If the lieutenant wanted to intimidate the hostile crowd, the sound of
a dozen charging handles might be more effective than a dozen bayonet
clicks. My guess(tm) is the Marines in Baghdad had M27 (HK416)
rifles, which have charging handles and use lug mounts for the
bayonet.
<https://hk-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/M27-Product-Sheet-NOV-4-2011.pdf>
The locking mechanism seems rather small and probably makes little
noise:
<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/sQIAAOSwUdRfUocv/s-l1600.jpg>
Maybe if the Marines were issued zombie killer knives?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+killer+knife&tbm=isch>

[John B.]

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 18:08:58 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 17:04:56 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>(chomp)
>>A Noted Person mockingly derided bayonets in a major speech
>>on military procurement and everyone shared in laughter. Not
>>long after, a Marine lieutenant and his squad were watching
>>a growing hostile crowd gathering in Baghdad. He sharply
>>commanded "Fix bayonets" followed by the metallic clunks
>>against rifles. The crowd dissipated.
>
>If the lieutenant wanted to intimidate the hostile crowd, the sound of
>a dozen charging handles might be more effective than a dozen bayonet
>clicks. My guess(tm) is the Marines in Baghdad had M27 (HK416)
>rifles, which have charging handles and use lug mounts for the
>bayonet.
><https://hk-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/M27-Product-Sheet-NOV-4-2011.pdf>
>The locking mechanism seems rather small and probably makes little
>noise:
><https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/sQIAAOSwUdRfUocv/s-l1600.jpg>
>Maybe if the Marines were issued zombie killer knives?
><https://www.google.com/search?q=zombie+killer+knife&tbm=isch>

Bayonet "locking" devices only prevent the device from falling off.
The actual retaining, i.e., holding it on the rifle, is done, usually,
by a ring around the muzzle and a tongue and groove slot further back
from the muzzle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonet#/media/File:Chassepot_bayonet_assembly.jpg

As for bayonet charges... certainly they have occurred in modern
warfare but stop and think for a moment. You are equipped with a
"machine gun" sort of device that can kill at several hundred yards.
but also has an option that allows you to get right up close,
practically kissing distance, so you can stab the guy. Which option
would you prefer?

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 10:00:44 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

That looks like a very old rifle and bayonet. I have one similar to
the bayonet:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chassepot>
In service 1866 - 1874 (primary French service rifle).

I assume that US Marines in Iraq were using something more modern.
That's why I included a photo of today's USMC OKC-3S bayonet:
<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/sQIAAOSwUdRfUocv/s-l1600.jpg>
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/254709634541>
I haven't played with one of these, so I'm not sure exactly how it
locks, but lacking any other mechanism in view, I'm assuming that the
device in the photo does the locking.

>As for bayonet charges... certainly they have occurred in modern
>warfare but stop and think for a moment. You are equipped with a
>"machine gun" sort of device that can kill at several hundred yards.
>but also has an option that allows you to get right up close,
>practically kissing distance, so you can stab the guy. Which option
>would you prefer?

I'm not a hero and don't do well in hand to hand combat. I also don't
appear very intimidating. Therefore, I prefer long range weapons.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQKrmDLvijo>

[John B.]

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 20:59:10 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

My point was that the so called "locking device" simply holds the
device from falling off. The Dovetail and the front ring is what
provides a strong joint.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254709634541 Small view on left side.

>>As for bayonet charges... certainly they have occurred in modern
>>warfare but stop and think for a moment. You are equipped with a
>>"machine gun" sort of device that can kill at several hundred yards.
>>but also has an option that allows you to get right up close,
>>practically kissing distance, so you can stab the guy. Which option
>>would you prefer?
>
>I'm not a hero and don't do well in hand to hand combat. I also don't
>appear very intimidating. Therefore, I prefer long range weapons.
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQKrmDLvijo>

Yup, it looks easy in the movies :-) But people that actually get into
shooting things that can bite back do it a bit differently..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eGw1QS-cs
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 12/4/2023 8:16 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Among American cyclists, it's well known that the Appalachians are much
>>> more difficult than the typical passes
>>> through the Rockies. Appalachian roads are much older and steeper,
>>> although the climbs are shorter. For a typical
>>> pass in the Rockies, one can just gear down and crank slowly. It may take
>>> hours, but it's not nearly so strenuous.
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>> That is broadly my experience with places such as Tenerife which is long
>> climb 20 something miles, and around the 7k mark at the top, though the
>> summit is beyond that, in that if one takes it easy and drinks/eats
>> regularly it’s doable and manageable, compared to shorter steeper stuff
>> that is a much more intense, even with nice low gearing.
>
> Of course the "summit is beyond that." That's why it's a pass! ;-)
>
> When we were making our way through the Rockies, it was blisteringly
> hot. For my wife, especially, that meant having to stop a few times in
> whatever meager shade we could find on the longest climbs, to drink
> water, maybe eat a snack and just cool down. I'd equipped our bikes with
> nice low gears, so those gradients were well within our capabilities.
>

Certainly with Tenerife it’s shaded the first 12/14 miles or so and climb
though and past the woods, where does become rather exposed and certainly
if you drop into the caldera which has been used for filming due to its
otherworldly nature and pro teams for altitude training at the one hotel
there.

I don’t operate well in the heat, note at 6C / 43f I’m still not in gloves.
So in hot conditions I tend to get out early. Be that climbing Teide at 30c
or exploring Jersey forgotten bays and so on before the temperatures
reached 40c

> The Appalachians are different. Years earlier one of my kids and I rode
> across Pennsylvania from New Jersey back to Ohio. He was literally
> furious about the steepness of some of the climbs.
>
> And as I've mentioned here before, we hosted Warm Showers guests for
> many years. One couple had ridden from San Francisco to Maine, then
> turned around and stayed with us on their way to Texas. They arrived
> here dead beat, and said Western Pennsylvania had been their hardest day
> of the entire trip.
>

Steep stuff you do end up well using strength and upper body and so on,
plus they often aren’t well known, ie quiet back roads and similar, valley
I grew up in, the main road though was being worked on, so folks would see
roads that appeared to be short cuts, forgetting that or rather unaware of
how steep sided the Gorge is.

The look of fear in drivers eyes! And rightly so the road has claimed a
number of vehicles over the years. But it’s out of folk’s expectations and
experiences.

Roger Merriman

[AMuzi]

Intimidation, in the best application of Sun Tzu, is one
thing. An actual bayonet charge is quite another!

https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/these-british-troops-launched-a-proper-angry-bayonet-charge-during-the-iraq-war/

No commander wants to be in a position where that's a
reasonable tactic. And yet,

"They ran across 600 feet of open ground toward the
entrenched enemy. Once on top of the Mahdi fighters, the
British bayoneted 20 of the militia. Fierce hand-to-hand
combat followed for five hours. The Queen's men suffered
only three injuries."

[Roger Merriman]

Only place I’ve seen with thickening is Mam Tor where as the land gave way,
they just kept adding more, until ended up with huge jagged slabs as they
eventually gave up, and it’s a fun walk/ride over the very broken road!

Roger Merriman

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 15:30:36 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
(chomp)

>My point was that the so called "locking device" simply holds the
>device from falling off. The Dovetail and the front ring is what
>provides a strong joint.

I agree. However, we were discussing the sound that the "locking
device" makes when the bayonet is inserted. The dovetail guide
provides rigidity, but it's the spring loaded "locking device" that
makes the noise. Maybe were using different terms for the various
parts of the assembly. To me, the "locking device" is NOT the
dovetail but rather is the spring loaded part with the serrations.
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/254709634541>

>https://www.ebay.com/itm/254709634541 Small view on left side.

Which picture? There are 11 small views on the left side of the page.

[John B.]

As described in the referenced article I can only say "that's
bullshit"!

20 British troops in vehicles are attacked by 100 militiamen and
struck a IED and then were attacked with mortars, rockets, and machine
guns.

Rather than drive through the ambush, the vehicles took so much
punishment they had to stop on the road.

They ran out of ammunition, called for help and then attacked the 100
militiamen, ran across 600 ft - 2 football fields end to end - and
fought for 5 hours and killed 20 enemy with only 3 wounded.


--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 09:45:58 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Dec 2023 15:30:36 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>(chomp)
>>My point was that the so called "locking device" simply holds the
>>device from falling off. The Dovetail and the front ring is what
>>provides a strong joint.
>
>I agree. However, we were discussing the sound that the "locking
>device" makes when the bayonet is inserted. The dovetail guide
>provides rigidity, but it's the spring loaded "locking device" that
>makes the noise. Maybe were using different terms for the various
>parts of the assembly. To me, the "locking device" is NOT the
>dovetail but rather is the spring loaded part with the serrations.
><https://www.ebay.com/itm/254709634541>
>
>>https://www.ebay.com/itm/254709634541 Small view on left side.
>
>Which picture? There are 11 small views on the left side of the page.

We were talking about locking devices so the one that shows the
locking device.... 3rd from top.
(Disregarding the row labeled "People who viewed this item also
viewed")
--
Cheers,

John B.